No need for an intro bc we all know what happened last night.

Barcelona only once in last 4 years made it past the quarters (2015). in last 2 years we've lost 4-0, 3-0, 3-0 in champions league knockout stages, as well as goalless games.

So what do you think Barcelona need to fix if there's to be any hope in the future?

I think:

1. High tempo: Barcelona have always played slow tempo stuff in the midfield. That needs to change. It's boring to watch, and it won't always work. Coutinho should help with that, and Dembele. Buying Griezmann probably won't. Does anyone actually think our attack could break down Man. City, Liverpool, Bayern or Real Madrid's defence? Not unless we get lucky?
2. Defence: Pique and Umtiti are attackers and not reliable enough in defence in comparison to any other big teams in Europe. Bayern, Liverpool, Real Madrid, PSG, all have solid defence. And Jordi Alba literally can't even be called a defender.
3. Preparing for a few years' time: Ronaldo leaving Real Madrid won't mean much to them. They can still compete easily. But when Barca loses Messi....?

On brighter side:

1. Messi's still epic.
2. Semedo is exciting.
3. Demebele's been good.
4. Countinho can play Champions league from next year.
5. Ter Stegen.
6. Umtiti (unless he leaves :-( is a good prospect)

There's another issue no one has been speaking about, although ultimately it's all related. The issue I'm going to show to you is Messi's goal drought in the Champions League knockout stages. Here are the number of goals Messi has scored in the knockout stages.

Since Barcelona's struggles in Europe commenced from 2012/13 season, that is the data I will show you.

So in that time frame of 6 years, Leo Messi has only scored three goals from the quarter-finals and onwards (one against Paris, two against Bayern). Only scored 3 goals in 17 appearances in the rough part of the CL since 2013... and this is during his prime (age 25-30). It's genuinely disastrous.

In comparison, Ronaldo has scored 29 goals from the QF onwards during that same time frame (46 knockout goals total). When you compare Ronaldo's 29 goals to Messi's 3, it becomes a very obvious conclusion as to why Madrid have been performing so well over that time frame but Barcelona has struggled.

Although there are numerous reasons for this, ranging from poor management and being tightly man-marked, the matter cannot simply be dismissed. Your best forward, who has been acclaimed as the greatest of all-time by many, cannot score just 3 goals in 17 knockout appearances (QF onwards). He cannot just walk around the pitch in a lethargic manner and just wait for the ball to come to him.

This stagnates Barca's offense, as Leo doesn't offer runs that players can pass to. He doesn't want to run until he's already touched the ball or if he's in the final third. This is where you realize that he's not a true forward or a true winger... he's essentially an exceptionally good goal-scoring attacking midfielder who started off his career at the wing and played his prime in the middle of a front three. Usually it's the attacking midfielders who limit their movement to short-distances in the oppositions half so the play can revolve around them (exactly how Messi plays nowadays).

This is tantamount to a disaster. It's exactly why Ronaldo still excels at his age - he is always moving. Leo doesn't move an inch until the ball comes to his feet. In fact, he spends most of his time without the ball by walking.

I find that part of the reason Barca struggles in these difficult knockout stages is that their play is too centered around Messi. It works extremely well against clubs who aren't good at defending, but in difficult matches you are solely dependent on Messi showing up. And clearly Leo has struggled to play well in these knockout matches consistently (not saying that his lack of goals means he underperformed in every match... his 2015 final was a good performance regardless of his name not coming up on the scoresheet).

But there is absolutely NO excuse for Leo to be struggling to perform in these matches this badly.

Fun fact: Last time Messi scored in the CL quarter-finals, Ronaldo only had 1 Ballon d'Or.

While Messi no doubt needs to hold a share of the blame, as Barca's best player, that's a gross oversimplification. Real does not simply wait for Ronaldo to score goals and go from there, they actively create the conditions by which he can succeed. His transition from wide runs to CB-splitting runs was a brilliant move from Zidane to keep Ronaldo squaring up fullbacks while at the same time getting into the scoring positions of a striker. Messi and Barca are simply doing what they have always done, and see no need to change. Maybe going out in this fashion will actually force some kind of tactical re-examination of the entire side - but I doubt it.

At the same time, while Ronaldo has no doubt on occasion carried Real (Schalke and Bayern games come to mind in particular), it's not like others don't pitch in. Casemiro, Kroos, Bale, and Marcelo have all scored big goals at big times, while the days of Inestia/Busquests/Alaba scoring those crucial goals seems to have been left in 2013. While losing Neymar hasn't impacted Barca's league form, it is worth noting how big of a factor he was for them in the UCL, with goals in the final against Juve, and being the absolute main force for Barca's PSG comeback, totally relegating Messi's role in the process.

There is no one answer, and a lot of blame with (rightly imo) go on Valvarde for assuming that his side would not concede 3 goals and setting up in a way that did not all Barca to win - because they didn't have to. But it really is the time for Barca as an organization to look at themselves and decide how to compete with Real - because what Real is doing in the UCL is totally unprecedented in modern history. That's very easy to forget. Barca has been better in the UCL than everyone except Real, who are just being historically good.

Less dependent on Messi? He carries a bit too much, or so it feels. He is not getting younger and will have to rest some games to be fresh when it matters the most. A bit like Zidane has done with CR7. Also other/new players need to take more responsibility. Next season it could be Coutinho, Suarez/Dembele, Rakitic...

Holy cow, Lio made a thread that both Dynast and Sun answer too, it feel like the old time once again... It was great back then wasn't it? Enough nostaliga, though. On the topic!

I agree the answer lie with the mentality, Barca shouldn't go into a game while thinking they already won! Last year, against Juventus, you could feel player like Neymar were distracted, the problem for me were mental, lack of intensity in both attack and defense.

Messi is good but you cannot count on him at all time, all it take is one match where he don't perform and you lose 4-0, 3-0 or 6-1, its crazy how most side are relying on him to do everything. :( He is just one man, despite people saying he is a alien. There is limit to what he can do.

tbf, messi shares the blame as a team player not as a main carry. similarly, when madrid is down you don't blame ronaldo solely. how many times messi saves the team forcing a draw lol. have to admit valverde is tactically outsmarted because no one anticipate a change of formation 3-5-2 from roma's manager. the subs should have been made from 1st half, paulinho and dembele should have been subbed in because obviously 3-5-2 formation is a game of wingback you need pace and physicality to cope with crosses. to give him benefit of doubt, andre gomes is a attacking midfield creative player, not defensive, not tracking back and deploy him at the wrong moment. have to say, the main reason for failure is underestimating the opponent, not messi doesn't score in quarter.

Although I don't feel like Barca has performed awfully through any periods, it should be noted that their ability to lose a game by large margins has been increased quite recently. The players tend to "tilt" and there seems to be no support or voice that helps them come back. I remember how much of a voice Puyol and Xavi were but now without them we don't have a true leader in all honesty. Messi is great, don't get me wrong but he isn't as vocal as he should be. 2015-16, we lost because athletico played us on the second match. 2016-17, we lost due to that one 0-3 game and even before that we nearly got out due to a 0-4. This year it was the 0-3 match, in which Barcelona's drive to score and win was nonexistent until the 82nd minute. I don't feel like the difference in the teams we lost to was ever a factor in the results, it is more the mentality and the ability to succumb under high momentum. Need better spirit than this if you want to win something.

@Dyn: the statistic doesn't mean much. That just shows how Messi carried Barca.

The last 3 years, Barca has had the shitiest def and mid compare to any top team. They RELY on Messi heavily and the moment Messi is injured or locked down, Barca's dead. Everybody know the aging Barca and all the overrated bought they from mid to defend.

Real however has the deepest squad and an engine from back to front. From a player like Ramos who could save the day ANY time, to the 2 best left back and right back in the world. The 2 best mids and Casemiro the beast. With that engine and a scoring Machine like Ronaldo, they are much better than Barca.

I still find it amusing that Messi stayed and carry this team, that's the true definition of carrying a team.

When Ronaldo doesn't perform, his team has the kind of player to step up. Then he has the next chance.
When Messi doesn't perform, Barca simply sucks bad. (look at their squad).

That's the different those stats do not say

Ronaldo fans only focus on goals, because it’s the only thing that Ronaldo can offer.

Messi is Motm in 80% of games he played, with or without scoring... he has the best CL ratio 0,88 goal per game. And best assister/chance création/dribbles/ through balls...
Even a blind can see that while people keep cherrypicking stats to justify their bias over a player that for me is a « Gert Muller «  caliber player not Maradona...

So Messi is the problem ? Lol. If Messi was playing at Madrid, they would have won 4 or 5 successive trebles. Barca without Messi would at best look like Arsenal.

Messi has a CL goalscoring ratio of 0.8, not 0.88; the exact same as Ronaldo. Since the latter joined Real Madrid, he's averaging well over a goal a game.

Now, on that note, saying Ronaldo only offers goals lets everyone know you never understood this sport -- or, which is the more likely case of course, you're just on a manic mission to attempt to underplay the achievements and qualities of a man you envy to the extent that it pains your every bone and muscle.

Ronaldo is the standout performer in essentially every game he plays; if it isn't his goalscoring or assisting, it's the intelligence of his passing, movement, positioning, space-creation, decision-making, leadership, take your pick. He's just the best at everything he does. It takes a feeble-minded individual of quite some proportions to claim Ronaldo's only about his goals. Appreciate the greatness -- don't envy it; the man's very likely the finest footballer to have ever stepped out on a green pitch.

guys, let's not going to much into Ronaldo Messi debate. Only if it's relevant to Messi performance in Barca and a bit of the counter part. Like me :D

Let's just enjoy the 2 legends

The day this Pepee will comment about Arsenal I would send him a gift, not even French and only showing up to lick CR7 ***. Why not comment with your main account buddy ?

So he is a creative 10 now, who are you fooling buddy ? Find me one person agreeing with you even Madridista doesn’t go that far...

@tuan who brought it first ? Does people believe in their BS really. So Messi is Barca weakest link in CL final stages ?

That was shockingly painful to read. How many valuable cells do you reckon I lost right there? You're better off staying on topic, buddy. On point: Why would you substantially falsify a ratio like that? I'd put my house and wife on this being rhetorical, in the end.

Intelligent passing, movement, positioning, space-creation, decision-making and leadership never exclusively belonged to the number 10 role. Construing it as such goes to show that your footballing knowledge leaves a lot to be desired.

why not stop embarassing Arsenal and France and switch for Ronaldo and Portugal ? you have been an Arsenal fan for like 3 days before turning Blue.
BTW are we talking about same player ?

You're categorically ignoring the question. Logical fallacies are not Harry Potter spells; you don't just get to shout them out and wiggle your wand to make magic happen. There's always a logical meta-fallacy, but you don't quite seem to have grasped that.

Tuan arleady told you not to turn this thread into a debate about CR7 and Mess. This thread will be closed now until further notice.