I don't know how many people will side with Kane on this one, but I'd like to give this a shot.

Is Harry Kane right now a better player than Wayne Rooney was in his prime?

Kane plays slightly further up the pitch than Rooney did, but he's still extremely effective. Undoubtedly a better goal-scorer than Rooney, Kane has notched 31, 28, 35, and 41 goals in the past four seasons - certainly a fantastic record. Harry Kane also has the record for best goal ratio for a PL Golden Boot winner (29 goals in 30 games).

A prime Rooney was more known for his ability to merge an aggressive, physical style with clever, technical football. Rooney was not as prolific as Kane, but did knock in 34 goals twice in his career.

Who was better? Kane right now or a prime Wayne Rooney?

It's hard to overstate the effect Rooney had on United after Ronaldo moved to Madrid. Of course, Rooney hardly ever played truly up front, more in the Muller kind of CF role behind a Berbatov or a Van Persie or something. For that reason a direct comparison with Kane is not as clear as one might hope.

The season when Ronaldo went to Real Madrid, Rooney stepped in and scored over 30 goals that season, I visited Old Trafford and witnessed his first goal, vs Birmingham, he was so much over-worked that season that he went to the World Cup 2010 totally burned out and flopped.

@iHEARTfootball:

Stats is stats, Lodatz, but I think we can both agree that football back then was a lot of challenging and competitive than it is today.

I don't know why you say this. In fact, half the time people are busy pooh-poohing the past, saying that it wasn't competitive enough. The simple fact is: the PL is more competitive now than it was in Rooney's day, as proved by the fact that the two best strikers in the land come from teams who were considered less likely to make the Top 4.

@SunFlash:

Much like many other England players, it may have just been something created by the media and fans,

FFS when will this obnoxious narrative die? If you want to look at media overrating players, look at Spain. Rooney was clearly one of the best strikers in the world in his prime, and the hype was justified.

But, even so, Kane's numbers are much more impressive. For him to have scored 20+ goals in 4 seasons on the bounce (and counting), with 2 Golden Boots and three 25+ goal seasons in a row, when Rooney only scored more than 17 goals on two occasions in his entire career playing for United, is truly special.

No wonder he's considered a world class striker. Hopefully he can succeed where Rooney's generation failed.

FFS when will this obnoxious narrative die? If you want to look at media overrating players, look at Spain. Rooney was clearly one of the best strikers in the world in his prime, and the hype was justified.

It is hard for that narrative to die when Spanish players win a World Cup, Euros, and virtually every UCL for the past decade. Whereas England, (and English players on English teams) consistently underperform. When those results change, that "obnoxious narrative" will die.

That being said, the hype around Kane is nowhere near the hype that was around Rooney. Can only be good for Kane's career, tbh.

It is hard for that narrative to die when Spanish players win a World Cup, Euros, and virtually every UCL for the past decade.

The UCL victories are hard to count, considering how few players in the Real and Barcelona line-ups are actually Spanish. Also, Spain have some proving to do this World Cup, considering how they were humbled at the last two international tournaments. Oh, and for the record, England won 3 international trophies last year, at youth level. Think maybe there's a bit of a change coming?

But the point is rather that every young Spanish whizzkid who comes through the cantera at a smaller club is treated as the next Iniesta, only to flop heavily when they move to a bigger club. The prices and the hype are absurd, for these players.

When those results change, that "obnoxious narrative" will die.

That doesn't actually have anything to do with the narrative. The narrative is that the English media over-hype their players, and this simply isn't true, it's simply an obnoxious stereotype that North Americans bandy around because it's the sort of thing they're told by Eric Wynalda or Alexis Lalas, or someone, and thus it becomes an obnoxious narrative.

English players are regularly slaughtered by the British press, far moreso than anywhere else. The idea that they are given some sort of hype boost is frankly false, and has been for, well, a decade.

The UCL victories are hard to count, considering how few players in the Real and Barcelona line-ups are actually Spanish

A higher percentage of the top Premier League clubs when they were winning it, that's for sure. (That's just a guess don't kill me)

Oh, and for the record, England won 3 international trophies last year, at youth level. Think maybe there's a bit of a change coming?

I'll believe it when I see it.

English players are regularly slaughtered by the British press, far moreso than anywhere else. The idea that they are given some sort of hype boost is frankly false, and has been for, well, a decade.

Of course they get slaughtered. English press will pull no punches to sell papers irregardless of it's hyping people up or ripping them apart. They aren't mutually exclusive.

A higher percentage of the top Premier League clubs when they were winning it, that's for sure.

Nope, that's incorrect, instead.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Okay, here ya go: http://www.espn.com/soccer/club/england/448/blog/post/3249789/englands-roaring-success-young-lions-incredible-year-at-youth-level

They aren't mutually exclusive.

They are when the narrative makes them exclusive by ignoring the slaughtering. The narrative is that English players are over-hyped by biased British media. This is false.

Nope, that's incorrect, instead.

United 2009: 2 English players
United 2011: 3 English players started UCL final
Chelsea 2012: 4 English
Liverpool 2018: 3 English players

Barca 2009: 6 Spanish players
Barca 2011: 7 Spanish players
Real 2014: 3 Spanish players
Atletico 2014: 6 Spanish players
Barca 2015: 4 Spanish players
Real 2016: 2 Spanish players
Atletico 2016: 5 Spanish players
Real 2017: 3 Spanish players
Real 2018: 3 Spanish players

Looks pretty correct to me.

Okay, here ya go

I meant when they hit the senior team Sherlock...

They are when the narrative makes them exclusive by ignoring the slaughtering. The narrative is that English players are over-hyped by biased British media. This is false.

You think Rooney didn't get ripped apart by the media? Poor bastard has made the front page of awful tabloids everywhere for every little thing he does. That doesn't mean he wasn't hyped to high heaven at the start of his career.

Why we gotta do this maaaaan

United in 2009 and 11 had more than 2 English players. Rooney, Scholes, Ferdinand, Brown, Carrick, Hargreaves, and Neville in 2009. This is without counting the Welsh players like Giggs, O'Shea, and Fletcher. Although they didn't play in the final due to injuries, old age, or suspension, you can't say United wasn't carried by them in the games leading to the final.

Neville and Hargreaves were out in 11. You probably had 5-6 English players and the usual Welsh suspects.

Players starting the final are a bad statistic to look at due to the aforementioned reasons; instead look at how many played in the UCL for that team.

@SunFlash:

2007 Liverpool: 3 English

2008 United: 6 English
2008 Chelsea: 4 English

2009 United: 3 English started, 4 finished.

2011 United: 3 English started, 3 finished (4 used total)

2012 Chelsea: 4 English

Looks pretty correct to me.

Then there might be something wrong with your eyes, or your sources, dude? Either way, since it's pretty much even with the average of 3 that Real have used to win the 4 of the last 5 UCLs, that can't really be used as a means to say that England's players were not worth their hype when it was them doing it.

Clearly, they were worth that hype after all. Like I said, the narrative is false.

I meant when they hit the senior team Sherlock...

Why? We are talking about the hype for young English players. England's young players just won 3 international tournaments. You said: "I'll believe it when I see it", but I don't know what you mean by this. Kane and Dele Alli, for instance, are clearly worth their hype, so you've already seen it, and I'm letting you know there is probably more of that coming in the next generation too.

Also, I'd like you to respond to this part, because it's more relevant to what we're talking about than the UCL issue:

But the point is rather that every young Spanish whizzkid who comes through the cantera at a smaller club is treated as the next Iniesta, only to flop heavily when they move to a bigger club. The prices and the hype are absurd, for these players.

It's only for the English players that people construct this narrative that they are over-hyped.

You think Rooney didn't get ripped apart by the media? Poor bastard has made the front page of awful tabloids everywhere for every little thing he does. That doesn't mean he wasn't hyped to high heaven at the start of his career.

And that hype was justified. Rooney was a fantastic talent. There was no "over-hype".

Why we gotta do this maaaaan

Well, the cute answer would be because you don't listen to me, but I'm not trying to rile you up. ;)

If you want to bring the subs on for the Spanish teams as well, be my guest. You may not like what you find though, because it doesn't really fit your argument.

But the point is rather that every young Spanish whizzkid who comes through the cantera at a smaller club is treated as the next Iniesta, only to flop heavily when they move to a bigger club. The prices and the hype are absurd, for these players.

Since you wanted me to answer this: that is undoubtedly true. But not all of them flop. Whereas it's hard to find English players who were rated really highly in the 18-21 years who did turn out well. Ironically the two you mentioned, Kane and Alli, were barely given any attention whatsoever. Kane's loan spell at Leicester could've told you that. Spain's midfield is unquestionably the best in the world right now. Costa and co in the attack is equal or sub-par to England's, but it's hard to question either Spain's defense or keeping in comparison to England. For whatever reason, Spain is producing superior players, and has for awhile now. Yet England's high profile youngsters get a lot more worldwide attention, and I would argue more domestic attention. If that has any impact on their development, given the information we have, is totally subjective. But I would suggest it does.

And that hype was justified. Rooney was a fantastic talent. There was no "over-hype".

Then why would the majority of people say that they were disappointed with his career? It's such a commonplace opinion that Fergie felt a need to address it in his books. Not just for the national team, this was a guy that was supposed to be better than Ronaldo and win a Ballon d'Or. And he didn't. That's the opinion, anyway. I'm certain you've heard it many times before.

Well, the cute answer would be because you don't listen to me, but I'm not trying to rile you up. ;)

The actual answer is that we're arguing about something really petty that doesn't matter whatsoever and the only reason I got involved has to do with how you've been conducting yourself in some other discussions going on right now - that is to say in a manner that I highly disapprove of. I wanted to beat on you a little without getting sucked into those discussions. And I'll spare you the obnoxious smiley face at the end.

what does this has to do with harry vs wayne?

If you want to bring the subs on for the Spanish teams as well, be my guest. You may not like what you find though, because it doesn't really fit your argument.

Seeing as my argument is that when English teams were clearly dominant in Europe, they had just as many English players as the Spanish teams currently have Spanish players, save for Barcelona's incredible home-grown generation (which has, btw, faded out now), it doesn't harm my argument in the slightest.

Those English players were clearly worth the hype. Why can't you acknowledge this?

Whereas it's hard to find English players who were rated really highly in the 18-21 years who did turn out well.

That's not true at all. It's incredibly easy to find England players who have lived up to the hype. Kane, Alli, Walker, Stones, Rose, Sterling, Dier, Smalling, Rashford and Lingard are all players who were lauded as hot prospects, and they are all mainstays of the Top 3 teams in the Premier League.

Ironically the two you mentioned, Kane and Alli, were barely given any attention whatsoever.

Um, you have no idea what you're talking about, mate. In Alli's case especially he was treated as (yes, the next) great hope for English midfield, with comparisons to Gerrard and Robson from his very first season in the PL. Kane didn't get quite the fanfare, mainly because no-one wanted to admit how good he is because he plays for Tottenham.

Spain's midfield is unquestionably the best in the world right now.

Debatable, but so what? That doesn't change or impact anything I've said.

The point is about the narrative of English players being over-hyped, remember? About how it's literally only England that anyone constructs this narrative for, even though other nations, such as Spain, hype their players just as much despite the fact that few of them actually live up to that hype?

For whatever reason, Spain is producing superior players, and has for awhile now.

It's the cantera system. It's common knowledge. Germany copied them, and now England are doing the same.

Then why would the majority of people say that they were disappointed with his career?

It's not the majority of people, but mainly because he didn't win the World Cup for us. That's literally it. I appreciate that you probably have to be English to understand just how strong this longing is for us.

The actual answer is that we're arguing about something really petty that doesn't matter whatsoever

What we're arguing about is that you keep on peddling an obnoxious narrative that I wish would go die in a fire. There is no "over-hyping" of English players, any more than anyone else. It's just a false narrative which deserves to be challenged, just like how Ferguson challenged the false narrative that Rooney didn't have a great career.

the only reason I got involved has to do with how you've been conducting yourself in some other discussions going on right now

So let me get this straight: the only reason you continued to peddle a false, insulting narrative about English football, is just to get back at me because you think I've misbehaved elsewhere.

And you wonder why I don't treat you as though you're some sort of football expert.

I wanted to beat on you a little without getting sucked into those discussions

Well, all you succeeded in doing is making my argument look better, and end up confessing that you were arguing under false pretenses.

:p

@the_bald_genius

what does this has to do with harry vs wayne?

Well, as Sun just confessed; nothing. He just wanted to be a troll.

@lodatz lol just chill, I know you're english fanatic.

btw, I just want to comment on harry kane commanding performance
vs tunisia and the main star is not sterling as expected. if he can be the inspiration for england for years
to come then this topic is more debatable.

And you wonder why I don't treat you as though you're some sort of football expert.

I'm not entirely certain why you would think that that is a concern of mine. I'm hardly an expert. But since you say it like that, if you don't respect my opinions (difference between disagreement and disrespect) I'm not certain what the point of even talking about soccer with you is. If I am a second-class fan from a second-class country in your mind, why should you take anything I say seriously? So why should we even talk?

Not going to lie, that one line pretty much ended any desire I have to talk with you about anything. I had half of your stuff in quotes with responses and I just deleted all of it, what's the point. If I'm inferior in your superiority complex, I guess this is it.

Kane is more consistent, for me Kane is stronger than Rooney but lets wait because one has just started his career and is yet to reach his peak...

@SunFlash:

I'm hardly an expert.

Then stop acting as though you are. You make sweeping, often condescending statements about this sport regularly, treating them as though they are 'common knowledge', and whenever I start pointing out reasons why those statements are wrong you treat it as though I'm being 'arrogant', instead of what I'm really doing: puncturing your hubris.

So why should we even talk?

Well, I mean, perhaps you'd like to understand the sport that the whole world calls football (and which you insist upon calling soccer) a little better? I would be happy to share my national sport with someone who has taken an interest.

That's why we should talk. The reason why we usually do talk is because you've said something I know to be false, something you've probably picked up from shoddy sources, and I want to show you why it is not true. Like Fergie, in his book.

Not going to lie, that one line pretty much ended any desire I have to talk with you about anything.

Not going to to lie, when you decided to abandon the argument in favor of dressing me down for whatever ills you imagine I've committed in other threads, you ended any reason to be impressed with your posturing.

I had half of your stuff in quotes with responses and I just deleted all of it, what's the point.

If you feel you're right, then speak on it. I don't mind.

If I'm inferior in your superiority complex, I guess this is it.

I don't have a superiority complex, aside from believing the truth to be superior to a falsehood, and that facts and logic are superior to feelings.

Peace.

(and which you insist upon calling soccer)

I live in North America, everyone I know call the sport soccer, I call it football whenever I can. Why does European assume just because most americain call it wrong, everyone who hail from there will call it wrong. This make me sad. :(

Hey, I don't assume that, Emo. I just have noticed it in SunFlash. He's the 'you' in that statement.

@Lodatz And now it make me wonder, does a rose by any other names still smell like a rose? Does football become less beautifull if its called soccer? We might never know.