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Remembering Fiorentino Perez's "Pavones"
Amerr30 8 years ago
Real Madrid, Bosnia-Herzegovina 56 616

“Poor old Paco Pavon an honest but not exceptional central defender, had the misfortune that his name was seconded to Perez’s scheme. The Pavones were never given the time or encouragement to flourish.” Graham Hunter.

Florentino Pérez had finally done it. At the second time of asking, he had cracked the Real Madrid presidency, replacing Lorenzo Sanz and taking control of a club known for its pristine white colours and equally gleaming trophy cabinet. He had campaigned for the role, as all future presidents do, with a number of attractive promises. One was to tackle the club’s financial difficulties. The other was to sign Luís Figo.

Thus, it was a grand gesture but also a promise well kept when Figo arrived at the Bernabéu from Barcelona in the summer of 2000. The move had as much do with psychology as tactics. In signing Figo, Pérez had broken the world transfer record, got one over Barcelona and instantly repaid his voters all at once. It was a wonderful time for Madridistas.

This was only the beginning though. For every year that followed, Pérez became more adamant in his pursuit of iconic individual players. What was the motive? To maintain club tradition, apparently. Long before the arrival of Pérez, Real Madrid’s history was littered with a vivid array of international superstars: Ferenc Puskás from Hungary, Alfredo Di Stéfano from Argentina, Raymond Kopa from France and Hugo Sánchez from Mexico.

They are an oft-told chapter of the club’s success story and Pérez seemed to continuously read that chapter to himself as he brought in Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldo, David Beckham and so on. They would become known as Los Galácticos, but Perez’s concept was originally called “Zidanes y Pavones”, with the underlying principle being to intertwine world class signings like Zidane, with home-grown talent like Francisco Pavón.

The “Zidanes” were otherworldly. Alien beings brought in to entertain, excite and enrich. People from all corners of the globe knew them and may even have bought the shirt to prove it. They were memorable and left an indelible mark on Real Madrid history. The “Pavones”, however, were flawed, entirely human and ultimately forgotten. They were the twisted sideshow in a flawed experiment.

The tradition that Pérez bought into with his luxury transfer policy was only a small element of Real history. This history also includes talented young Spanish players signed by the club, such as Francisco Gento who, just like Puskás and Di Stéfano, was a key member of Real Madrid’s five consecutive European Cup wins from 1956 to 1960. Gento was brought to the club before he had played a full season with Racing Santander; he would become a Real Madrid legend.

The final – and perhaps less told – portion of the club’s history is written by La Fabrica (The Factory), the youth system that has played an integral role in shaping their success. Not only have great players come through this system, but great teams have been built upon its very foundations.

When Real Madrid beat Partizan Belgrade in the 1966 European Cup final, every player in the team was Spanish. This was still a group of top-class footballers, but it was assembled on a more local scale. Furthermore, three of that all-Spanish line-up came through La Fabrica. Manuel Velázquez, Fernando Serena and Ramón Grosso all arrived in the first XI through the club’s feeder team – Plus Ultra, or Castilla as they are now known.

As Real Madrid’s “B” team, Castilla play an integral role in bringing through the club’s finest young talent, preparing them for the rigours of first-team football. Although nominally a reserve team, Castilla had its own defining era in the 1980s.

In 1980 Castilla met their more famous parents in the final of the Copa del Rey, having knocked out the likes of Athletic Bilbao and Real Sociedad. Appropriately, the feeder team were duly thrashed 6-1.

Later that same decade, however, under the management of former Real legend Amancio Amaro, Castilla competed at the top of the Segunda División, even winning the league in 1984. They were ineligible for promotion due to Real’s presence in La Liga, but several members of this great Castilla side would go on to play a huge contributing role in one of Real Madrid’s most successful teams.

Emilio Butragueño played for Castilla before his promotion to the first team in 1984. A goalscorer known as El Buitre (The Vulture), Butragueño headed a pack of five home-grown players known as “La Quinta del Buitre”, which consisted of him, Michel, Manolo Sanchís, Martin Vázquez and Miguel Pardeza. The group were promoted by Di Stéfano, who was then manager.

Apart from Pardeza, this group became frequent cogs in a Real Madrid team that dominated Spanish football, winning five consecutive league titles between 1986 and 1990, as well as two consecutive UEFA Cups in 1985 and 1986.

Butragueño and co. were not the only players to go from Fabrica to first-team around this period. Others included Chendo, Jesús Solana and Ricardo Gallego. Put simply, it was an extremely productive time for Real Madrid’s youth system which interwove itself into a prolonged period of authoritative control atop Spanish football.

When Pérez entered the Real presidential arena in 2000, the club had just won the Champions League. Iker Casillas, Guti and Raúl had already established themselves as a part of the club’s core. The trio had come through La Fabrica, and all were in their early twenties. This didn’t fit the Pérez agenda, however. He wanted international stars for continental success in order to create a hegemonic global brand fuelled by merchandising.

La Fabrica had been historically effective, but it wasn’t sexy. Record-breaking transfer fees, gargantuan salaries and instantly recognisable names were the new necessities to push the Real Madrid brand. When “Zidanes y Pavones” became an idea, it was instantly superseded by Los Galácticos. The Pavones didn’t stand a chance.

“Now that Beckham’s coming there are finally going to be two good-looking guys in the team … I felt so lonely being the only handsome player in such an ugly team.” Roberto Carlos.

When Roberto Carlos said the above, he probably did so with a cheeky wink and a dimpled smile, but his statement rang alarmingly close to the truth. Under the auspices of Pérez’s spending policy, looks and ability were disturbingly close in terms of importance. Real Madrid had to have a style and Perez almost obliterated the club’s substance in pursuit of it.

In a telling series of events in the summer of 2003, the club deliberately abstained from joining the race to sign Ronaldinho because he was “too ugly”. Instead Beckham was signed; in spite of the fact the club already possessed a world-class right winger in Figo. The same summer Claude Makélélé was allowed to leave for Chelsea in a cataclysmic misunderstanding of the French defensive midfielder’s importance.

The club reaped the financial rewards of Beckham’s signature, but on the field of play cohesion was found wanting. Makélélé wanted greater pay parity with his cohorts; Zidane was reportedly paid six times more than him. Pérez, however, allowed Makélélé to leave as he didn’t feel defensive players justified the same wages as their attacking peers. The decision may have made the club richer, but it left the team imbalanced.

Every great football team needs a strong defence but, just as highlight reels are easier to collate when featuring goals rather than well-timed tackles, shirts are much easier to shift when they have the name of a prolific forward or mazy midfielder on the back. Signing a good, solid defender may bring a sigh of relief, but the queues at the club shop will invariably be shorter.

Pérez’s initial years of adding one superstar to an already successful team yielded positive results. The club won La Liga and the Supercopa in his first 12 months as president, before adding the Champions League, European Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup the following season. Another league and Supercopa followed, but eventually the negligence of the president’s ideas took its toll.

Francisco Pavón was once considered a promising young central defender, though his name would soon become synonymous with unfulfilled expectations. Promoted from Castilla in 2001, he soon became an important member of the first-team, though the reasoning for his increased importance was not portrayed accurately in Pérez’s grand “Zidanes y Pavones” vision.

While the club freewheeled around the globe touting their brand and selling shirts, the shortfalls of the ideology beneath the brand strategy would inevitably unfold on the pitch. The club were promoting youth, yes, but this was no organically eclectic mix of quality players both bred and bought. The youths, like Pavón, were merely filling the gaps – financially, and on the pitch.

The huge spending on attacking players had to be balanced somewhere, after all. In the same summer that Makélélé departed, Fernando Hierro followed suit. Suddenly Real’s defence was threadbare, so the Pavones filled in. That year Sid Lowe brought the truth home pointedly, saying that the reason behind the mixing of Pavones with Zidanes was “a way of saving money, of balancing the huge outlay on players like Becks by paying tiny salaries … for young players.”

Zidane remarked of the sale of Makélélé: “Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?” It was a point that, directly or not, was aimed roughly in Pérez’s direction. If, as Zidane had suggested, his fellow Galácticos were the paint, then that surface was wearing thin.

Real Madrid suffered the consequences of such patchy squad management. Lacking in spine, the club stumbled through the proceeding years. The club went four years without domestic success between 2003 and 2007 and would fail to qualify beyond the last 16 of the Champions League for seven consecutive seasons after 2004. This was a rough period, no doubt bearing the brunt of Pérez’s half-baked utopian vision. It was a vision that would leave its mark in other ways.

As well as a drought in silverware, the Galácticos era resulted in a wasted generation of youth team players. Some, evidently, were just not up to the task. Some were perhaps asked to do too much too soon. The remaining few may simply have found the conditions – playing the unappreciated role of “Pavones” to the star “Zidanes” – unworkable.

Whatever the reason for the failure of a generation, the prognosis was pretty clear. Real Madrid promoted their youngsters, but subsequently demeaned them. They were not considered a part of the club’s core, merely filler in positions deemed less important. This is proven if anything by the sheer number of defensive Pavones that found themselves utilised, in contrast to a real scarcity in their more attack-minded peers.

The lost generation included right-back Oscar Miñambres, left-back Raúl Bravo, central defenders Pavón, Rubén and Álvaro Mejía; defensive midfielder Borja Fernández and striker Javier Portillo.

Raúl Bravo showed flickers of making the grade. He covered in defence when needed, but found it impossible to budge the established Roberto Carlos at his favoured left-back position. Instead, he often found himself playing at centre-half, because his fellow youth team graduate, Rubén, was simply inept. Of Rubén, Sid Lowe said, “Manager Queiroz … rates Rubén so highly that he’s chosen a converted left-back who disappointed at Leeds [Raúl Bravo] instead.”

Bravo would amass 14 Spain caps, despite that instantly forgettable spell in the Premier League, but would never force a regular first-team place at Real. Ruben would fail in that quest too, eventually taking a tour of Spain that would take in Cantabria (Racing Santander), Galicia (Celta Vigo); the island of Mallorca (Real Mallorca) and Navarre (Osasuna).

Mejía and Borja proved temporarily useful but easily discardable utility men. Mejía found game time across the defence, while Borja was perhaps the only man to find real solace in Makélélé’s exit. Mejía eventually dropped down the divisions with Murcia before jetting off to France, Turkey, Greece and Qatar. Borja would make himself an important player with Valladolid.

Up front, Portillo was for a time considered Real Madrid’s hottest prospect. He was a prodigious scorer of goals at youth level, even breaking a record previously held by Raúl. It boded well for Portillo, perhaps more so than any other graduate making the step up. In his first full campaign, he scored 14 goals in 23 appearances. It was a positive start to the club’s new local hero, but circumstances would rapidly deteriorate in the following years.

After a goal-shy second season, Portillo was farmed out on loan to Fiorentina and then Club Brugge before finally moving on permanently for Gimnàstic de Tarragona. Now playing with Hércules, Portillo has spent the years since his Real release bouncing between Spain’s first and second tiers, unable to live up to his early billing.

Miñambres had a short fling with first-team action at Real before a loan move to Espanyol. Unfortunately, a knee injury curtailed the full-back’s chances of progress, then halted his career altogether. He retired, aged 26, due to pain in his knee that made playing unbearable. He is now a tobacconist in Móstoles. And then there is Pavón.

Pavón was arguably the most prosperous of the Fabrica products of the Pérez era. However, this was expected – he was after all the poster boy of the Pérez vision. In Pavón’s breakthrough season, 2001-02, Real won the Champions League. He played a part throughout the competition, though he was benched for the final against Bayer Leverkusen with the more experienced Hierro and Iván Helguera preferred in central defence.

Pavón remained at the club for five more seasons, making over 100 appearances. His promise petered out before he moved on to Zaragoza. His career eventually finished in France with Arles-Avignon, where he was re-united with Mejía. He and his fellow Pavones had been gradually airbrushed from Real Madrid’s glamorous history.

It is a fair question to ask: were the Pavones that bad, or were they failed by the times? The reality is probably somewhere between both, though given the rejection of quality Fabrica graduates in future, the truth probably wavers closer to the latter.

Graham Hunter opined that they were not given a genuine opportunity. It’s a viewpoint that holds weight when also considering that, following the Pavones, several more notable players would also fail to make headway in Real’s first team.

Atlético Madrid and Spain right-back Juanfran was one such player. Another was Manchester United’s Juan Mata. Both were allowed to leave for La Liga teams, Osasuna and Valencia respectively, from where they would go on to forge careers at the top level of European football. Javi García, of Zenit St. Petersburg via Manchester City, is another example of a player whose status grew upon leaving the Bernabéu.

Others include strikers Roberto Soldado – who became one of Spanish football’s most prolific marksmen at Valencia – and José Callejón, who now scores regularly for Napoli in Serie A and won his first Spain cap earlier this season. Another striker, Álvaro Morata, was sold to Italian giants Juventus, though Real have ensured they have the option to buy him back in future.

Florentino Pérez returned to the Real Madrid presidency in 2009 and his immediate movements confirmed a return to the old Galactico ways. That summer he signed Cristiano Ronaldo for a world record £80 million and Brazilian playmaker Kaká for the relatively paltry sum of around £60 million. More recently, however, there have been promising developments for a select few Fabrica graduates.

Dani Carvajal emerged from La Fabrica before being sold to Leverkusen in 2012. His buy-back clause was activated after just one season in Germany, and he has since established himself as Real’s first choice right-back with impressive displays of energy, defensive solidity and attacking ambition.

Another academy graduate, Jesé, showed great potential last season having flourished when given a run in the team by manager Carlo Ancelotti. He scored eight goals in 31 appearances overall, though a cruciate ligament injury to his right knee put paid to his season, with calls for him to be involved in Spain’s 2014 World Cup squad gathering momentum.

In winning La Decima the club realised a long sought-after objective, though this was primarily achieved through financial bludgeoning in the purchase of the world’s best players. However, instead of taking stock and learning from past mistakes, in the summer of 2014 Pérez and Real veered uncomfortably close to old ways.

With excitement surrounding the club once again, Pérez decided Xabi Alonso was no longer truly relevant, selling him to Bayern Munich in a decision eerily reminiscent of his sale of Makélélé just over a decade ago. Ángel Di María – their rampaging attacking midfielder and a crucial cog in Ancelotti’s Champions League-winning side – was also sold. Toni Kroos and James Rodríguez were brought in as replacements.

They were transfers that left the club with little by way of protection in midfield, while also posing a tactical dilemma as to how to feature Rodríguez alongside Gareth Bale, Cristiano Ronaldo and Isco without compromising the team’s balance. Furthermore, the deals were struck at a time when Real were blatantly in greater need of a central defender than a creative midfielder. For many it was an unfathomably frustrating case of déjà vu.

Although the club sat comfortably atop La Liga entering 2015, Pérez’s ideas continue to obscure the story of Real Madrid – a club with a proud yet understated history of nurturing talent from within. In the short-term, signing the world’s most marketable players may work, but it has negative strategic connotations, namely the obsolescence of youth. If you wish to obtain proof of that, you need look no further than poor old Paco Pavón.

By Blair Newman.

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Comments
tuan_jinn 8 years ago
Manchester United, Netherlands 198 6912

Its a really long read but very interesting... may be a bit too long and i find it bit too opinionated.

Perez is the crazy guy, thats no doubt. His policy is questionable but lets say, if there was no Barca and the Messi era, i wouldbt doubt Madrid would have conquered Spain. Its hard to pure judge his philosophy success... Real has a lot of other problems, Perez might be the source, might be not.

I like Carlos' quote on the good looking thing though. But Beckham made the team more pretty? And that was the new way? Bullshit. Its all about business to them, whoever attracted the crowd they bring him in.

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Amerr30 8 years ago Edited
Real Madrid, Bosnia-Herzegovina 56 616

^ Of course it's subjective, it's an editorial.

However, it does list a lot of things that many people here from a 'certain' fanbase have in this past decade decided to completely either forget, ignore, or they never knew in the first place. In any case, reading it could prove to be very beneficial and will make them better informed. Of course, I'm talking about those that think that La Once-in-50-yearsia is the greatest thing ever. :)

But Beckham made the team more pretty? And that was the new way? Bullshit. Its all about business to them, whoever attracted the crowd they bring him in.

Clearly, there is a big marketing element to Perez' big money transfers. If unattractive was sought after, followed, and idolized - I'm sure that all that Perez would be going after would've been ugly players. I'm sure however, that is not the only criteria. I'm not sure if it even is. I would think that most likely, the only criteria is that the player can be marketed well, and turned into a brand name. For example, Angel Di Maria, Ozil, Modric, Gareth Bale, are all well established brands in World Football, and the fact that they are all, well, mostly 'unattractive' did not have any effect in us pursuing and transferring - and then marketing the hell out of them.

What Perez goes after is a players marketability potential - not their 'looks'. It's just that some people consider that to be one and the same. Whether that is true or not, I have no desire in debating.


It is undeniable that Perez philosophy has brought more success to Real Madrid than we've had in a long time. Perez alone has turned La Liga into the best league in the World. Because Barcelona got 'lucky' with their academy graduates - something that has never happened to them before and quite possibly never will again (on that, I would bet my house and my bank account). If we had somebody else on the helm, we wouldn't have had the team that we have now and quite possibly, the league would've become similar to Bundesliga. At least for about a decade..

It is because of what Perez has done that La Liga is not a one horse league like Bundesliga. Because of what he has done, we have been able to, more or less, keep up with Barca. There have even been times when we've surpassed them.

This is just being realistic. In any other era, or time period, Perez' philosophy would've paid off both domestically and internationally. Look at the first Galactico era. We won 2 Champions League titles in the space of 3 years, not to mention 2 La Liga titles. He has made mistakes, surely. The biggest one is relying on academy to produce 'the gaps' in the team for positions that he did not buy a super-star for, and not doing it the other way around. Although it does seem like, with the exception of his blunder in selling Xabi (even though he was getting old), he is learning. He is allowing 'certain' managers a final say over who will play, and/or who will be bought. Perhaps I'm just being hopelessly optimistic.

However, one thing that has to be said is that it has now been 7 years since he's been in charge and the team is still going strong. His first galactico era only lasted 6 years, the last 3 of those being absolutely dreadful due to mismanagement. I don't see that happening now.

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  • History
Showing previous versions of this text.

^ Of course it's subjective, it's an editorial.

However, it does list a lot of things that many people here from a 'certain' fanbase have in this past decade decided to completely either forget, ignore, or they never knew in the first place. In any case, reading it could prove to be very beneficial and will make them better informed. Of course, I'm talking about those that think that La Once-in-50-yearsia is the greatest thing ever. :)

But Beckham made the team more pretty? And that was the new way? Bullshit. Its all about business to them, whoever attracted the crowd they bring him in.

Of course, there is no denying that there is a big marketing element to Perez' big money transfers. If unattractive was sought after, followed, and idolized - I'm sure that all that Perez would be going after would've been ugly players. I'm sure however, that is not the only criteria. I'm not sure if it even is. I would think that most likely, the only criteria is that the player can be marketed well, and turned into a brand name. For example, Angel Di Maria, Ozil, Modric, Gareth Bale, are all well established brands in World Football, and the fact that they are all, well, mostly 'unattractive' did not have any effect in us pursuing and transferring - and then marketing the hell out of them.

What Perez goes after is a players marketability potential - not their 'looks'. It's just that some people consider that to be one and the same. Whether that is true or not, I have no desire in debating.


It is undeniable that Perez philosophy has brought more success to Real Madrid than we've had in a long time. Perez alone has turned La Liga into the best league in the World. Because Barcelona got 'lucky' with their academy graduates - something that has never happened to them before and quite possibly never will again (on that, I would bet my house and my bank account). If we had somebody else on the helm, we wouldn't have had the team that we have now and quite possibly, the league would've become similar to Bundesliga. At least for about a decade..

It is because of what Perez has done that La Liga is not a one horse league like Bundesliga. Because of what he has done, we have been able to, more or less, keep up with Barca. There have even been times when we've surpassed them.

This is just being realistic. In any other era, or time period, Perez' philosophy would've paid off both domestically and internationally. Look at the first Galactico era. We won 2 Champions League titles in the space of 3 years, not to mention 2 La Liga titles. He has made mistakes, surely. The biggest one is relying on academy to produce 'the gaps' in the team for positions that he did not buy a super-star for, and not doing it the other way around. Although it does seem like, with the exception of his blunder in selling Xabi (even though he was getting old), he is learning. He is allowing 'certain' managers a final say over who will play, and/or who will be bought. Perhaps I'm just being hopelessly optimistic.

However, one thing that has to be said is that it has now been 7 years since he's been in charge and the team is still going strong. His first galactico era only lasted 6 years, the last 3 of those being absolutely dreadful due to mismanagement. I don't see that happening now.

Dynastian98 8 years ago
Real Madrid 483 7140

I still think Perez is detrimental to the club. Barcelona's years of roaring success came from their youth team. I agree with @Amerr... Barca are lucky to have Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi come out at the same time. This will never again happen in 100 years. It has never happened in history before. It is an outstanding stroke of fortune. But Perez has still failed. He has been able to beat Barcelona, and yet he repeatedly makes the same mistakes over and over again. This is why we haven't been able to conquer Spain. We didn't deserve to conquer Spain. To be the best you must beat the best, and we've only beaten Barcelona 1 out of 8 times to the league title. They've finished above us in every other time.

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ashwin1729 8 years ago
Manchester United, England 10 704

@Dynast: maybe not exactly similar players, but it has happened before. United's 92 squad: Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, and Neville.

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Dynastian98 8 years ago
Real Madrid 483 7140

@Ashwin

Nowhere near the full quality of players. Neville was always a good RB, but never a great one. He always did exactly what he was supposed to do, but never did anything eye-opening or jaw-dropping. We already discussed Beckham's 'greatness', or lack thereof, in another thread by @Tuan. Giggs was a great player, Scholes was terrific. In fact, I'd only put up Scholes alongside the level of Xavi/Iniesta/Messi. The other three players don't come close. Even La Quinta del Buitre don't come close to Xavi/Iniesta/Messi. These three are three of the greatest players of all time. It's absolutely ridiculous that they all came through the youth system in a span of 6-7 years.

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ashwin1729 8 years ago
Manchester United, England 10 704

I'm not saying that Neville/Beckham were greatest players of all time. But you can put Scholes and Giggs in that category. They've led United to 4 UCL Finals, won 2. Lost 2 of them to this Barcelona team due to 1. Messi and 2. Lack of a holding midfielder. In Both games Fletcher or Hargreaves were out. I'd say Scholes/Giggs are very comparable to Xavi/Iniesta if not better. Only reason these two didn't win the WC was because of England's stupid infatuation with Gerrard and Lampard, and with Giggs, he played for Wales. Messi on the other hand is in a league of his own. Very few players can be compared to him. A few years ago Xavi made a statement saying that at la Masia, the teachers taught players to play like Scholes. That should serve as some insight to the player's quality. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said; just stating that it happened before at least with Scholes an Giggs.

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Dynastian98 8 years ago
Real Madrid 483 7140

@Ashwin

But those two victories were 9 years apart - hardly a dynasty. Giggs in 2008 wasn't exactly a 'key' figure in the United squad (which becomes more significant since you are considering only two players rather than three). Moreover, Scholes and Giggs did not dazzle their way to victory on either occasion. One was won in added time due to two fortunate goals, and the other was won on penalties. XIM won 3 of their titles in 5 years with a combined scored of 7-2 (I'm guessing via memory, may be wrong), which is more akin to a dynasty. Moreover, they, quite frankly, played around with United in 2011, which was arguably at their peak. Add in the 4th title Messi and Iniesta won in 2015, and you have 4 titles across 9 years. Considering this is a tournament no one has ever won twice in a row since it's refining, that is the second-best haul you could possibly have across 9 seasons. This is more like a dynasty. I'm not saying all those titles were won fairly, but they were still won in style. I find it a bit unfair to compare XIM to United's class of '92 (of which I only really identify Scholes as being world-class material).

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ashwin1729 8 years ago
Manchester United, England 10 704

I'm not denying that. And you do raise an interesting point about fairness in that Barcelona should not have made it to 2009 Final, and they should pay Overbo a tremendous amount of honor in helping them there. I believe 2011 Semi-final was also marred by some controversy with Busquests and Alves? Or was that a different year? In 2011 Final, Scholes was a player of the past; like how Pirlo's Juventus made it to final a year ago. They toyed with a depleted United squad who got lucky draws to make it to the final. 2008 When United played home and away over 2 legs, Barcelona could not score because we had a solid CDM who was fit. In any case, 4 trophies are very good for your argument, but at least 2 of them were tainted with controversy. If you discredit the 2 tainted UCL trophies, all 4 players I'm comparing will have the same # of UCL's . I was comparing Iniesta and Xavi with Giggs and Scholes; who are comparable; they're all World class. Giggs could have gotten into any team in the Early-mid 2000's, and even that 2008 season, he played a big role rotating with Ronnie. Like I said, Messi is in a class by himself; adding him to the equation will change any dynamic. My whole point was that the class of 92, like you pointed out, may not have the dazzling players, but they worked together as a team. Neville and Beckham may not be world class, but they did their job right, and were very consistent. In any scenario, I guess you and me are speaking from two different points of views-Dynasty vs academy graduates.

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tiki_taka 8 years ago
Barcelona, France 367 9768

La Quinta del Builtre over Los Galacticos anytime for me. That being said I think a president that reaches 80 pts systematically each season is on the first tier of the best presidents in the world. Few mistakes were done but sacking Carlo was a huge one even bigger than signing Benitez. Carlo could have stayed for à long period...

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