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U.S. Women’s Soccer Team Sues U.S. Soccer for Gender Discrimination
Marcus2011 3 months ago
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

In the lawsuit, filed in United States District Court in Los Angeles, the 28 players accused the federation of engaging in “institutionalized gender discrimination.” The issues, the athletes said, affected not only their paychecks but also where they played and how often, how they trained, the medical treatment and coaching they received, and even how they traveled to matches.

One of the biggest differences in compensation is the multimillion-dollar bonuses the teams receive for participating in the World Cup, but those bonuses — a pool of $400 million for 32 men’s teams versus $30 million for 24 women’s teams — are determined by FIFA, world soccer’s governing body, not U.S. Soccer.

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DarthFooty 3 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

The discrepancy between the men's program and the women is huge and not just with Fifa's compensation. They have a fair argument and I hope they get what they deserve.

Should be interesting to see how it all plays out.

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Marcus2011 3 months ago
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

Can you expand more on this? I personally thought that womens national team gets what FIFA distributes to US football federation. Aren't they suing the wrong governing body?

Also, I looked at womens stats and they don't bring as much revenue as mens soccer team.

Also, womens team has signed in 2005 agreement that they will be getting 72 k flat annual wage no matter what and various performance bonuses will be added as they progress. I think they should get what they deserve but equal as man? I have yet to find good source that will justify their claim other than allegations.

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DarthFooty 3 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

Great question and follow up. Let me gather some materials and see if I can cover it a bit better. I wont have all the details, but I can touch on some glaring disparities. It will never be equal because it does not generate the same revenue or interest, but there are plenty of opportunities to bring levels on equal footing in some areas.

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Tuanis 3 months ago
Deportivo Saprissa, England 82 2246

Im sorry but this whole gender pay gap is absurd. Even more so coming from footballers who kick a fucking ball around and get payed a lot of money.

The simples financial explanation could and should work to diminish the claims of sports women.

Women's soccer is just not as profitable, sponsorships, match attendance and a few other factors that contribute to the income that Women's soccer gets year after year. You can't expect that if all of these factors account for a tenth of men's soccer, for the women that play the spot to be paid the same.

I understand what they argue in terms of achievements overall, as we all know the US women's team is one of the best in the world and by far better than the men's team but that does not justify being paid the same.

Should they get a raise? Absolutely. Should they be paid exactly the same as men without considering anything else financially and or sports related? It would be idiotic.

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Greatone 3 months ago
Arsenal, Australia 12 361

if they win this it'll be a fucking robbery.

a) mens football brings in SO much more money than women's football it's ridiculous.
b) the amount of competition to become a professional male footballer is so much higher than that of a female footballer, the sacrifices and the amount of commitment that people have to put in to get even within touching distance of professional male football is nowhere near at the same level as female football

this is just dumb that they think they deserve more money when they still have goalkeepers who can't catch a ball.
you get what you deserve and maybe they deserve more but them using the terms gender discrimination leads me to believe its a bunch of entitled crybabies who think they deserve the same as men

one of their arguments is that they win more than the men's team yet don't receive the same pay. LOL if the competition was as weak as the female international teams that they face for mens then they would win more as well.

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Marcus2011 3 months ago
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

I am always for equality of opportunities but not equality of outcome.

You probably have all heard that in Uk as well as in USA debates on gender equality issues have been hot lately. Specifically one that stands out is that transgender females ( man that became female) completing in female sports. Ironically, these athletes have been basically “raping” the female division. In response to these dominating victories, females have gotten mad that it is unfair!! Can you believe this? They said it is unfair for transgender man to compete in female sports!!

Well, I am loving all this because this shows how incredibly stupid our society has become! We have completely gone off the rails!

If they think this is unfair then why do they demand equal wages like man in sports??! If you are less competent, bringing less revenue and entertainment for the public, why should you deserve just as much male athletes who are far more superior and bring by far higher revenues for the sport?!

First time ever their logic has hit the wall by their own group that they were defending!!! Hahahaha it is like briliant! Natural course of action have proven them wrong.

At last, I wish I had identified as female so I could have got scholarships then paved my way through football into pro then retire comfortably!! Lol those transgender lads have it all figure out and they found a loop hole in a system!!

So back to this topic: these football females are dumb. I read more about it and they just feel privileged becUse they are female. I want females to earn what they deserve but based on their competence! They should promote female football more if they wasn’t higher revenue. Sign commercial deals and etc, but not throwing tantrum and crying for men to give them what they want?! This is exactly what has been happening. Man giving woman what they want, yet us men must earn it. Oh man I am so happy transgender people are getting into female sports. I would like to see full transgender international team or transgender female tennis player who will destroy Serena willlians and any one else!

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DarthFooty 3 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

I am going to step away from this conversation because clearly we have some strong opinions where they feel the ladies are less competent or just simply can't catch a ball. (Seen plenty of male keepers accidentally let the ball go through their hands. Seen plenty of female players who are in fact better than some male counterparts)

No point in debating when minds are completely one sided and will just result in name calling and all that. Not even going to bring in the transgender aspect either.

Male superiority is just in the physical (strength, speed) aspect! Technically, tactically, they are no different just because they are female.

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Marcus2011 3 months ago
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

No point in debating, when you haven't presented any good argument other than : "I support them" and " I will look into it". I asked you to present some sources or give a more constructive argument. Yet, you disappeared for days. I think you are the one with a strong opinion backed by popular opinion and not a single fact. Prove us otherwise, instead of gushing. Did you bury yourself in books, articles and newspaper to try to make sense of your argument?Are you writing 15,000 research paper with powerpoint slides? I am excited and looking forward to it.

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Marcus2011 3 months ago Edited
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

Seen plenty of female players who are in fact better than some male counterparts

Depends. Are we talking about world class stage? Can you comfortably say that US goalkeeper is better than Englands goalkeeper? our keepers suck as you know.

Male superiority is just in the physical (strength, speed) aspect!
Technically, tactically, they are no different just because they are
female.

That is a very strong statement which can be disproved by simply reading science journal and watching football. In america there is a saying: "put your money where your mouth is"

If they are technically and tactically no different surely it should bring audience and revenue? Right?

Not even going to bring in the transgender aspect either.

Because it completely debunks your opinion with factual real life experience of a transgeder player killing female division in any sport. Wait until there will be more of them and more of them start going pro ;) Fun is just beginning!

In fact, they might just bring more revenue eventually. I would love to also see UFC transgender female challenging these tactically and technically equal fighters in octagon.

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Emobot7 3 months ago
391 9632

On one point, their complain make a certain amount of sense, but they cannot expect their federation to give them the same for less. Its sad but as long woman football fail to be as popular as the man football, thats not gonna change. To be fair though, I blame the FIFA in the first place for not making an effort to make woman football better. If they would invest into publicity and make the sport more attracting to the rest of the football fandom, the level of interest around the world could easily rise which would lead to better all-around skill from the team participating in the competition. Right now, woman national football only got an handfull of really good team and the rest are much less skilled which make most competition far less interesting than the man tournaments for me.

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DarthFooty 3 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

@Marcus2011

Life has me pretty busy and I am not in front of a computer much of the day. When I do have some time, responding here is not a priority, even though I do enjoy the site and the group very much. That should cover my disappearing for days. Haha

At first, I did want to try and locate a few articles published so that I can share them with you all, just as food for thought, not to force anyone over to my side of the fence. I don’t care if you feel they are less deserving, I just think it is a bit ridiculous to discount them when just looking at revenue generation or how many fans they get. If you do some checking on your own, if you have the time of course, you can see several examples of just how well the ladies are doing in the sport. I am talking about true female athletes mind you. Transgender is a completely different topic from this.

Seen plenty of female players who are in fact better than some male counterparts
Depends. Are we talking about world class stage? Can you comfortably say that US goalkeeper is better than Englands goalkeeper? our keepers suck as you know.

You do have me with the counterpart statement as I am talking about professional players, even collegiate division 1. I am not trying to compare national team players against each other, that would be ridiculous of me. I will say though, I have seen female players who are better than some college and pro players, they just did not have the same speed and strength of course.

Male superiority is just in the physical (strength, speed) aspect!
Technically, tactically, they are no different just because they are
female.
That is a very strong statement which can be disproved by simply reading science journal and watching football. In america there is a saying: "put your money where your mouth is"
If they are technically and tactically no different surely it should bring audience and revenue? Right?

Yes and no, the sport for the women’s side is very young compared to the men’s globally. Heck some places, girls cant play at all. We have seen stadiums sell out for women’s matches just as we have seen empty stadiums for mens. The speed and strength difference between men and women does not take rocket science, it is a biological fact. However, that does not mean they are less of an athlete, less skilled, less competent. They just cant run as fast or hit as hard.
As for revenue, in todays market, with Nike, Adidas, and Under Armour, womens gear is selling at 1.5 x higher than men’s in sport. Perhaps that is not in football mind you, but there is a growth evidence in women’s athletics at all levels. Hard to give exact funding compared to the mens World Cup due to the amount of teams involved, TV and site revenue, ect.

Not even going to bring in the transgender aspect either.
Because it completely debunks your opinion with factual real life experience of a transgeder player killing female division in any sport. Wait until there will be more of them and more of them start going pro ;) Fun is just beginning!
In fact, they might just bring more revenue eventually. I would love to also see UFC transgender female challenging these tactically and technically equal fighters in octagon.

Again, transgender is not a part of this topic at all. Sure it is a game changer, which is why lots of born female, natural females complain about the inclusion of a born male, turn to female athlete. Hormones (Testosterone) in those people change their speed and strength, so how is it on equal footing?

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Greatone 3 months ago Edited
Arsenal, Australia 12 361

if it really is just about the physical part of things then female national teams (the best of the female NTs as well) shouldn't be losing to u/15s, as the difference physically isn't quite there yet. and it's not like these were south american or european u15s as well, keep that in mind.

USWNT losing 5-2 to dallas u/15s

Matildas losing 7-0 to newcastle jets u/15s

of course it's true that female football hasn't been developed yet but that doesn't change the fact that they are clearly jumping the gun asking for the same as the men's teams. Maybe instead of asking for more wages they can be asking for more commitment from their footballing governing bodies to promote and develop female football.

the thing is womens football has a strong following which will work in its favour in the long run in its development. BUT this strong following is turning people off because of bullshit and unfounded remarks about womens football being portrayed as the victim.
it takes time for things to change and trying to go from point A to point F too quickly isn't going to work

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Emobot7 3 months ago
391 9632

Maybe instead of asking for more wages they can be asking for more commitment from their footballing governing bodies to promote and develop female football.

This, I agree completely with it! Instead of thinking of their short-term wage, why don't they work toward making a better future as a whole for women football in America.

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DarthFooty 3 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

@Greatone

This is actually a good example of where the sexes start to trade off in speed and strength. The u15 age group is the closest you get physicality overall between women and young men. At this age, boys are faster and stronger as they have come through puberty and their bodies have started to adapt to new muscle and growth spurts. If the ladies played a u14 or u13 age group, they would have the strength and in a lot of cases the speed.

The article, widely used mind you, does not tell the entire story. It does not state how many starters were not playing, nor the fact that the team had only been in camp one week. That means they had anywhere between 3 to 5 training sessions together before playing that match.

Add in that at u15, the boys are already faster and mostly stronger than the ladies, plus they played a club team, one who has been together for full sessions and know each other very well. One last thing is that Dallas side is one of the better clubs in the country and very well organized.

I agree that in many stages of the sport, the women will not be on equal footing financially due to their revenue generation and the overall amount of presence they bring. I also agree that they are pushing for things too quickly, but if you look at where the “Me Too” movement, and women in more power positions in government offices, you can see why they are attacking now. Plus the fact that the women’s world cup is very soon, thus they have a marketing platform.

My only issue with some comments in the thread are that the ladies are not as competent or skilled.

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Greatone 3 months ago
Arsenal, Australia 12 361

U15/s is not when they are faster / more physical, it depends on the boy. However boys coming out of puberty and just starting to gain muscle should be comparable with women who are training and have already gained their strength. Boys start to turn into physical men by the time they hit 17 and even then they aren’t anywhere near as physical as men who have been training for a lot longer. Puberty doesn’t equal muscle yet.

Fact is they aren’t as competent or skilled on a general basis. For whatever reason (the sport is as developed) that’s not a fact that can be debated.

Yeah strike while the iron is hot. But the iron isn’t hot in football and it’s like taking the achievements of the metoo movement and trying to apply it in football. I think we are coming to a time where women are getting more acknowledgment and the respect that they should be getting and there are plenty of outdated processes that need to be fixed but equal pay in football is laughable.

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Dynastian98 3 months ago
Real Madrid 480 7105

Men also have biologically better hand-eye and foot-eye coordination than women... there is a huge technical as well as physical gap. Don't know if some of you social justice warriors have actually watched a women's football match before, but they're horrendous compared to men's football. A second-division team in England or Spain would crush top-tier women's teams.

It's honestly embarrassing how much of a talent gap there is between men's and women's sports, and how women believe they are as good as men at these things. I see the same shit with the WNBA and the NBA. Women's sports is just frankly less talented and less entertaining, and will forever be that way. It's a different sport when men play it vs. women.

If you don't believe me, check out Serena Williams' comments on men's tennis vs. women's tennis.

No, it’s true. It’s a completely different sport. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder, it’s just a different game. I love to play women’s tennis. I only want to play girls, because I don’t want to be embarrassed. - Serena Williams on men's tennis

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tiki_taka 3 months ago
Barcelona, France 353 9439

Technically and Tactically ? No way, 5th division random club in France would rape Lyon or French NT of women any day.
In France we got 700.000 male affiliated to a club officially, that’s 9% of Males under 40%. With a huge part playing consistently in futsal or Foot5 or between friends not even included in the count...
Women are not even 20.000, and having played with my friends against Le Mans Fc in futsal friendly tournament, we toyed them while our GK is a fat 50 yo workmate and we were playing for fun. So excuse me but if we agree on strength, we won’t agree on technical and tactical equity. Best women football players in the world have amator level in term of technical and tactical abilities with few exceptions...

We cannot compare real professional women athletes like in swimming or Tennis, or running where the level is super high to football, they are just blessed to have such a weak competition.

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Marcus2011 2 months ago
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

@darthfooty

I have yet to see anything substantial and factual from your argument other than speculations and some pseudo scientific opinion.

But anyways let's take your "argument" as strong arguments for the sake of discussion.

I don’t care if you feel they are less deserving,

I don't feel they are less deserving. Laws of macroeconomics and cruel consumer audience demonstrates by not giving their money as well as time to attend to their matches.

I included links so you can click on hyperlink.


USWNT :

Total Attendance: 253,151
• Average Attendance: 14,064

The 14,064 per game average is a drop of 22% from 2017 when they averaged 18,150 per game (and it’s a 49% drop from the 27,766 in 2015). It was also the lowest average attendance since 2014 when they averaged 10,791 per game. It’s quite baffling that every single Women’s World Cup Qualifying game drew under 10,000 fans. That’s five games of under 10,000 this year compared to just four games of under 10,000 in the last three years combined.

USMNT:

Total Attendance: 169,141
• Average Attendance: 24,163

The 24,163 average in 2018 represents a 17% drop from 2017 and was the lowest attendance since 2006 when they averaged 20,360 per game. The year 2018 was the third straight year where the US Men’s National Team (USMNT) averaged less than 30,000 fans per game, a feat that was last accomplished from 2004 to 2006.

This is considering that USMNT SUCKS! Like THEY SUCK SO BAD THAT THEY COULDN"T qualify out of the easy group to WC! That ofcourse affected them a lot!

Notice Also that i am not including commercial TV audience which again is higher than USWNT

Now, go and compare yourself on how much regular ticket price is at USMNT game and USWNT. Right now USWNT playing "Shebelieves" Cup where average price is about 42$ .. mate i didn't even there is such a cup until recently and even then only reason why anyone would watch them because they are national teams.

Below you can find all the public financial statements of US Soccer team, don't get carried away there are lot of evidence that will shock you world so take your time and drink water in between ;)

https://www.ussoccer.com/about/federation-services/resource-center/financial-information

2010 Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million. The 2010 Men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion. Those players got $348 million, or 9 percent of the total revenue. The women's team got a higher percentage with 13 percent, but the bottom line was still much less, $10 million.

2014 - same thing , women got 13 percent out of the total pool while they were pointing out that men's 9 percent is still too high. Again look at revenues if you are interested but I think you can already guess who brought more money.

This sounds like an argument that will be louder in Portland than just about any other city in the country. This soccer hotbed supports the women's league like no other city. Two women's pro leagues have already failed and the NWSL averages only 4,400 fans per game -- playing in sub-par facilities in many cities. To make an argument for equal pay in this sport is premature, at best.

Well you could argue that women aren't getting enough marketing and promotion, perhaps or maybe because majority of football fans including , men and WOMEN, prefer to watch MEN's Fooball matches.

Here is another Point to make how falsely women and shameless claiming that they are underpaid:

"While the women in the filing say they have earned nearly 25 percent less than their male counterparts this year, the figures supplied by the USSF show that for the 25 top-earning U.S. national team players over the past four years, 14 of whom are women, the average compensation is $695,269 for the women over that span, compared with $710,775 for the men, a difference of 2.2 percent.
In 2015, 14 of the 24 women's players earned more than $300,000 in salary plus benefits, and no one earned less than $249,000, according to federation numbers, adding that the top male player earned just more than $178,000 in salary in 2015.
USSF chief financial officer Eric Gleason said the USSF numbers also show that for the past eight years, there has never been a year in which the player-compensation-team-revenue ratio was greater for the men than for the women.

You can read more here and see ration for the last 10 years : http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/15277241/us-soccer-federation-says-uswnt-earns-only-22-percent-less-men

So, as you can see, there is unfairness here -- but it's toward the men.

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Marcus2011 2 months ago Edited
Chelsea FC, England 270 5991

If there is a problem with promoting female sports then please campaign for that but I think females are getting already a lot with promotion. This narcissistic and self entitled approach as " WE DESERVE" never got any man far in any thing. MEN Deserves his money because HE EARNED IT. Not because someone gave it to him because he is man but through regirous trainings, abuse from sports agents, clubs and eventually achieving what he always dreamed about. Where were GENDER equality campaigners when Spanish football players weren't getting paid?? If they were women hell would broke loose!

I love my women, i grew up with women and i want them to earn what they deserve nothing less nothing more.

I don't know why we are living through these times though. What does these groups want to achieve? I think there are group that are trying to seriously piss off men. As soon as men speaks of unfairness they are quickly called out as sexist, misogynist and intimidated because we have fragile masculinity ???! Really ??! We have rational arguments with hard facts and evidence to back our claim yet somehow we are still loosing battle after battle.

My girlfriend is ex pro tennis players ( she stopped before going to college for FREE on scholarship, instead of pursing career further) :
I asked her : "Do you think it is fair for females to play against males ?
She said: " NO! Because males are stronger and better overall"
Then i asked : " Do you think it is fair for transgender to play in tennis ? "
She said " NO! because he is still a male"
Then i said: Why do Tennis federation then pay same equal prize money to women as men in tournaments? When men ( Nadal, Federer, Djokovic) bring so much more revenue, sponsorship and promotion to the matches?
She said: " No we don't get paid more, we actually get less"
Then I sent her FACTS WITH SOURCES..
She said: " I am tired I want to sleep"

THIS IS THE SHT WE DEAL WHEN WE ARGUE WITH WOMEN. They somehow feel wronged and always right. It is like they have been brainwashed even when they are doing very well and better than men , they still feel men are getting more privileges and women are oppressed.

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DarthFooty 2 months ago
Queens Park Rangers, United States 8 406

@Marcus2011 Great reply my friend. I never meant to try and counter the fact that they are not on par with the men's side in attendance, popularity, and physical ability, because they are not, nor will ever be. I intended, then failed miserably, to try and provide some points to allow you to think about this from a different perspective.

My wife is livid that the ladies are not getting as much money as the men because they have been more successful in the sport winning wise. I asked her if she thought it fair to be equal when revenue, attendance, and marketing value prove a huge difference between the men's side and the women's, she said no, it would not be fair.

Once I took out that it was not based on their skill level or competence, she could not say that it would be fair. She is also coming from a non-sports background and sees jobs as relative to skill, knowledge, and ability over just speed and strength.

My only contention out of all that I have seen here or read where ever I look, is how people dismiss the ladies from a competence and skill stand point. Of course there is physical differences, but they are not less smart, less intuitive, less creative, or have less ability.

Note: After my question to my wife, she said "Don't you have a game or something?" which means, go away I want to watch TV. haha

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